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Author Topic: About creep denying  (Read 16340 times)

Offline CPGameface

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About creep denying
« on: August 26, 2011, 12:04:51 AM »
Hello, I wanted to get some peoples opinions on this. I noticed in some DOTA2 vids that they decided to go with creep denying, which i don't like. Now before you go calling me a n00b and tell me to go back to LoL, hear me out. In the original DOTA, before it got super competitive and turned into DOTA All stars (yes I played it a bit at the time) creep denying was not put in by design. The ability to attack your own units was just a function in WC3 that someone got the bright idea to take advantage of, and it worked. Quite well in fact. Eventually, it became just a part of the game and if you didn't do it you sucked, because the guy you were laning against was doing it.

Now you may call me crazy, but slaughtering my own little minions just dosent sit right with me, but i had to do it in order to win :-\. And at some point, I realized in the early stages of the game, I payed little attention to the players i was up against. My entire focus was on last hitting creeps. The game didn't FEEL like a pvp match until some time into game, at least to me. Just a game to see who can farm the most.
So then LoL and HoN come out and I had to make a choice. Most of my friends who played DOTA decided to play HoN, for a few reasons, they liked the look better, had heroes who were almost identical to some DOTA ones, and BECAUSE LoL had no creep denying. I was confused. I assumed with these new games they would finally do away with that silly WC3 function that let you attack your own team, but HoN actually went so far as to give you a little "Deny" message when you killed your own creeps making it a yet another competition to see who can last hit the most and not the Online Battle Arena it should be. However everyone else seemed to see it differently. They thought that no creep denying would make LoL uncompetitive. A game only for the casuals. So after some arguing we all agreed to disagree. I went and played LoL, while my friends who played DOTA went to HoN. And they gave me some shit for it, asking how can someone come out ahead in a game where you cant deny xp and gold.

But you CAN. In LoL, from lvl 1 it is a PVP match. If you want to deny the other team gold and xp, you and your lane partner(or just you, w/e) work to push the other team away from your creeps.
Zone them out or send them back to their base, giving you openings to last hit their creeps and DENYING them last hits and XP. Clearly a more competitive way to play. Now some people would say that there's some balancing issues there. That strong early game champs would dominate their lane and there's nothing that can be done about it, but LoL addresses that problem by not making the minions attack someone just cause they right clicked an enemy champ so that can't be used to pull minion waves back, and by making the towers a much bigger threat. So if you are getting dominated in your lane you can just fall back to the tower and let them come to you. I've felt that LoL has always been a fun and fairly balanced, competitive game, so I've never gone to join my friends in HoN. Even after it became free to play. Most of my HoN playing friends have a LoL account now though, but they still say HoN is more competitive. And here's why (I think); they had played DOTA for a long time before HoN and LoL came out. A lot of games, and a lot of creep denying, and the game had conditioned them into thinking that they had to kill their own minions before the other team in order to win, but it wasnt just in DOTA. It was in any similar game. So when LoL came around and didn't let them kill their own creeps they had to re-think, "How do I win? How do I come out ahead of the other people?", and rather than find the answer to those questions they went with what they already knew and just played HoN. A bunch of you probably think I'm waaaaaay over thinking this... Oh well.

IN CONCLUSION! I feel that creep denying makes the game more of a race for farm and less of a competitive team game, and if valve really wants to make DOTA2 a competitive E-Sport by making a truly good, and competitive game, and not just throwing a million dollar prize tournament out every once in awhile, they need to make some changes to the original DOTA formula. What do you think?  :)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:09:16 AM by CPGameface »

Offline AREHAPPYNOW

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 12:47:25 AM »
u say that u HAVE to zone the enemy to deny them the exp. in dota, u choose. if u have the skill to deny, u deny. if u cant out-deny them, u "outzone" them. u can also pick to outdeny or pick to outzone. Its up for u to decide.

Offline CPGameface

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 01:25:45 AM »
Choices are good. I like your point.
But in a game your always gonna try to deny because it's usually a safer option. And I think there shouldn't BE a safe option. If your going to try to widen the gap between your amount of resources and theirs there needs to be a certain amount of risk involved. And you said so yourself, if you have the skill you deny. Which means you think last hitting you own minions is a valuable skill. Which means you are not putting all of your focus on the enemy team. Which means the game is a farming competition at that point. You see what I'm getting at?

Offline Farkinator

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 04:30:40 AM »
Well, I used to feel that way a lot too. Of course, I was one of "those guys" who barely played DotA mainly because it was just god damned impossible on most of the clients. When LoL came out as an analog, I began to play. A ton. I played that and Starcraft exclusively for maybe a year. Of course, after a year, I began to tire of LoL's metagame (Which had gone from epic disable-heavy teamfights to Derp-farming for 40 minutes then whacking people and throwing the occasional skillshot around) and started playing some HoN. I broke the entry barrier once again (LoL players are rather retarded at DotA :D), and I remembered what had made me love this type of game in the first place. Gone was the idle boredom of laning in LoL (it used to be great because the game was much disable-heavier than it is now) and now I had all these powerful tools at my disposal. Not only that, but I had yet another way to distinguish myself from the people who didn't know what they were doing: the DENY. Oh, how good it felt to deny again! I could actually prevent people from pushing my lane by denying them the creep. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to get pushed by some idiot who just sits there autoattacking your creep wave at no cost to them except bad positioning (which isn't nearly as deadly in LoL, but that's another story). I'm sorry that you feel differently about it than I do. As confusing it is to some people, other people tend to have different opinions. I feel like only focusing on creep denies is a rather low-level mistake, and denying simply adds to the incredibly awesome phase that is the DotA early game. I find myself bored in the LoL early game because of the lack of disables and the lack of denying. Zoning in DotA is actually done incredibly well. INT heroes who do not need farm tend to focus on denying and zoning, whereas a hard-carry in bottom or top lane would focus on last-hitting enemy creeps. I simply feel that DotA has a lot more aggressive potential early game because there exist incredibly aggressive lane setups. Alas, we are all entitled to our opinions!

As for making DotA an ESPORT, why on EARTH would we make the game take less skill? That seems counter-intuitive. To me, DotA isn't nearly as broken as LoL is as an ESPORT. We have more money, more exciting matchups, more established rivalries, more decisions involved, and less downright broken shit. To even be on Dota 2's level, LoL has so many problems to fix that the game is a non-issue. This game has been 6 years in the making since IceFrog took over. He KNOWS his shit. There's a reason he hasn't taken it away, and it's not just because of a stubborn player-base.

Offline tallgeese

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 11:05:47 AM »
I think there are three main issues with your argument.

1. The idea that denying promotes passive play is completely false.  I have watched and played in a number of high level LoL games and the inability to deny only promotes passive play, especially in the side solo lane.  Champions known the enemy can only prevent farm through harass with the same going for them.  In theory this promotes active play, but in practice it often means a relative truce as each champion farms up waiting for a gank to break up the action.

In DotA/DotA 2 denying serves not only as skillset, but also as a means to "force the issue." If you end up in a lane where the enemy is a superior farmer to you and can limit you through denies you are forced to take action through harassment and/or ganking.

2. You use flawed reasoning.  You say denying is only a relic of the WC3 engine.  True its origins come from this engine, but that does not make the mechanic unwaranted.  As others have stated it is a vital part of balance as well as a strength of some heroes which plays into their skillset as well as a player's general ability.  To write it off as an inborn error only needing to be fixed could be said the same for collision sizes which allow for another high skill tactic, body blocking.  These elements do not take away from they game but rather enrich an already deep experience and leave even more room for gameplay variety and interesting plays.

3. You also use League of Legends former official stance that "killing your own units feels weird."  While your other reasons do have merit this is nothing more than a fallacy, possibly stemming from your use of the term MOBA.  DotA is not a MOBA.  It is an action-RTS (stress on the RTS part).  In any situation where strategy comes into play logic should supersede instinct.  Yes, at first though killing your own units is poor form, but in the realities of battle it is and has always been a strategy to destroy your own fortifications so that the enemy cannot take them for their own use.  Under the concept of strategy denying is wise.  Why would you stand by and wait for the enemy to come claim all of the gold that comes with a tower kill.  Make the enemy earn their reward by STRATEGICALLY overcoming the tower before it can be denied.  The same goes for creep and hero denies.
DotA is a game where action and strategy fuse to make an impressively skill and intellect based game.  Removing elements of this experience is foolish.  LoL fans should focus on the things DotA could look to add like energy/heat/rage based heroes rather than arguing over denying which, no matter how you slice it, is not a major game element, and does not deserve to be so massively controversial.

Offline Zapple

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 01:12:03 PM »
Denying is one of the essentials of lanecontrolling so if you remove that, everyone will be running around like headless chickens.

Offline Preshlen

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 03:33:33 PM »
Ok , I had a lot of things on my mind but decided to save them and dont offend you but....
A: "OMG, who says the denying is not necessary and ruins the team competition!?"
B: "May be the one who cant do it him/herself?"
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 03:46:10 PM by Preshlen »

Offline DramaPlease

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 03:36:39 PM »
Go back to lol Noob dota is so more awesome cause you can deny  , thats another way to see a player s skill

Offline CPGameface

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2011, 06:12:05 PM »
Yes, at first though killing your own units is poor form, but in the realities of battle it is and has always been a strategy to destroy your own fortifications so that the enemy cannot take them for their own use.  Under the concept of strategy denying is wise.  Why would you stand by and wait for the enemy to come claim all of the gold that comes with a tower kill.  Make the enemy earn their reward by STRATEGICALLY overcoming the tower before it can be denied.  The same goes for creep and hero denies.


Best argument anyone has given me about it yet ;D. And while I see your point, I still don't like it. Though that's not gonna stop me from playing the game.

Offline Free

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 07:25:33 PM »
When i'm Doomed or with Veno/Viper poisons to the death, if I can't be saved, i'd rather being denied by a friend then dying in the enemy's hand and giving them gold, i would die either way.

Dota is team based, you should not be thinking on yourself, and I belive the creeps "think" the same way. For me it's like the creep is asking the deny itself.

Btw it's cool when you deny yourself with an illusion.

Offline Damnation

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 07:53:44 PM »
In a nutshell.  Denying adds another whole dimension to the game.  The more layers a game has, the more 3D it becomes.  The less complexity a game has, it becomes a lot more 2D.  The reason LoL is less competitive then Hon/DoTA is because there is less to worry about.  The more complex the game is, and the more micro that is required, the larger the skill gap becomes.

If everything is a lot more simple, it can never become competitive because everyone has a much closer skill range and it becomes less exciting to the players, and the observers.  Games/anything only becomes competitively popular because the community has the drive for it to exist.  It is where the money is.  If you were to compare Go-Fish to Poker.  Poker is infinitely more complex, which is why it is a competitive game.

Offline mumble

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 10:44:24 PM »
I'm sorry, but there really isn't much I can say except "go back to LoL".

DotA has always been known for it's high skill level and it should always stay that way. Denying adds a whole new dimension to the game as others have mentioned above. It adds more to the importance of lane control since you can stunt your opponent's exp gain, instead of just their gold gain. The advantage someone who can deny has over someone who doesn't is 100% fair and square.

Also about the moral issue of killing creeps, I like to think of the last scenes of "The Last Samurai"... The dying creep drags itself to my hero and asks me to let him die to a Sentinel/Scourge blade rather than that of an enemy xD


Offline Preshlen

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 10:49:56 PM »
@Damnation ,  I see your pint and can claim the same, but dont hink LoL is less competitive then HoN.

HoN playerbase - 50 000
LoL playerbase - 5 000 000

P.S. I'm supporter onley to dota but have an opineon about hon and lol and also have read something interesting which in fact is true. (I'll try to quote)
"HoN = dota 2.0
  LoL = other gener game"
That's why, when dota2 comes out, HoN will die but LoL will stay even with lower player base..... food for thought ;)

Offline Damnation

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 11:12:27 PM »
Obviously LoL is competitive as you play it.  I personally play both LoL and HoN, so im not sticking up for one over the other in terms of saying one is better or worse then the other.  Im simply pointing out that HoN/Dota2 have more depth to them, and anytime you compare 2 similar games, the one that is more complex is always considered the more competitive of the two.  This is true for almost everything you apply it to.

Offline mumble

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Re: About creep denying
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2011, 11:22:15 PM »
The question is whether you want to lower the skill level to let the 5kk LoL players in. I don't mind if a large number of players get turned off by the steep learning curve as long as D2 maintains DotA's skill level.


 


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