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Author Topic: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial  (Read 10512 times)

Offline Player13

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Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« on: March 14, 2011, 07:29:02 PM »
This is not much of an update, but I sent an email to Icefrog a couple weeks ago with a bunch of suggestions as to how he could improve the experience for new players, outside of the coaching system. (Amongst other things, I suggested a Newbie game mode, like in HoN, but with the 'difficult' heroes and items taken out of the picture to shorten the learning curve.)

He replied yesterday advising that there will be a Tutorials planned for Dota2, which, although not surprising, is a new tidbit of information.

To make this more of a discussion, what would you have liked to see in a tutorial, when you first started playing Dota, to help you pickup the game faster?

Offline ShadowsCrush

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 11:13:20 PM »
To be fair, the tutorial in HoN really does the game no justice.
It's just not the type of game that you can really learn any other way besides experience.

No enemy is ever going to play the same way, or build the exact same items in the exact same order, and being able to react and adapt to those variations is nothing a guide is ever going to be able to teach a person.

A great deal of what separates the average pub from a competitive player is just the mindset that they play in.

I think the coaching feature will be a huge step in the right direction as to trying to "teach" those concepts, but it's still going to be a rough learning curve regardless.


Offline Flip4Life

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 05:58:57 AM »
To be fair, the tutorial in HoN really does the game no justice.
It's just not the type of game that you can really learn any other way besides experience.

No enemy is ever going to play the same way, or build the exact same items in the exact same order, and being able to react and adapt to those variations is nothing a guide is ever going to be able to teach a person.

A great deal of what separates the average pub from a competitive player is just the mindset that they play in.

I think the coaching feature will be a huge step in the right direction as to trying to "teach" those concepts, but it's still going to be a rough learning curve regardless.

I completely agree.. For instance someone may go the same build every game (assuming the character is obviously the same), but what happens if you die a few times at the beginning and don't have enough money, or what happens if the other team is all stuns, then BKB.. Idk there are just wayyy to many variables when playing a game of dota.  Although there are guides out there, they don't and simply cannot cover every single aspect of the game.

When I was first introduced to dota YEARS ago at a lan party, I had no idea of what I should buy and a had a buddy giving me advice.  I noticed we played a few games and he had the same character but his build would change slightly.. This confused the hell out of me and was impossible for me to understand.  Even having a buddy there to explain everything and what to do in every situation, experience was the ONLY way i was able to truely learn.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of being able to have a coaching feature, but don't expect it to turn "noobs" into instant pros.. That takes years of just simple practice.. Iv been playing dota for like 5 years and honestly can only consider myself "pro" with a select few characters... AND I HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED COMPETITIVELY!  Sure I have an idea of what I should always buy and everything but that was simply developed through years of playing and playing and playing... having a coach will help this issue, but it will simply not make as big of a difference as some people may think.

Sorry to kinda go off on a rant, but I guess to answer your question:

I think that it would be cool to have recommended items on screen that can somewhat change depending on the enemy heroes/situations.. It might be extremely difficult to implement this because they would have to develop algorithms for hundreds and hundreds of variables, but I feel like that would have helped me out A LOT when I was starting out. (obviously this would be implemented in a game mode so not EVERYONE has to see it at all times, or even an option to turn it on and off.)

Even just recommended items would be a decent thing they could implement with a little bit of variable change depending on the situation? :P

Sorry... When I start typing, I tend to never really stop.. Sucks that I can't do that for the college paper I have due tomorrow :X Hah maybe I should just start writing about Dota 2 and hand that paper in, see what my professor has to say about it :p
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Offline Zero

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 10:06:53 AM »
I would like to see the non-situational basics in a tutorial. Not "how to move/attack stuff" in the HoN tutorial kind of basic, but like the mini scenario's in SCII (cant remember what they were called).

Examples:

  • A short tutorial where you have to sequentially outfarm a random enemy to a certain level. This is the tutorial for last hit/deny/harass. Level 1 would be a random hero with weak AI, level 2 would again be a random hero with a bit stronger AI, and the highest level you would go against a AI that last hits/denies/harasses with mechanical accuracy. You can try with any hero of your choosing.

  • Babysitting tutorial, how to take care of your carry. You play a support and are laned with a random carry. Enemy would be a random combo of carry + support. Your task would be to make sure your carry reaches X level with Y gold before the enemy carry does.

Will post more examples when I think of them.

Offline Xyr3s

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 02:49:34 PM »
i dunno y everyone wants a tutorial...... its gonna be the same as dota..... same heroes, same items....... if u play dota u have no problem what so ever with dota2...... is the heroes and items were different they wouldnt call it dota 2....: /

maybe for newbies starting dota2 who havent played dota yes...... but hey we all learned to play dota without a tutorial lol...... and if lankans can learn to play dota without a tutorial i dont think any one else will have much of a problem ;) :p

Offline Land[of]Death^

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2011, 03:02:44 PM »
i dunno y everyone wants a tutorial...... its gonna be the same as dota..... same heroes, same items....... if u play dota u have no problem what so ever with dota2...... is the heroes and items were different they wouldnt call it dota 2....: /

maybe for newbies starting dota2 who havent played dota yes...... but hey we all learned to play dota without a tutorial lol...... and if lankans can learn to play dota without a tutorial i dont think any one else will have much of a problem ;) :p

It's not about it not being possible to learn DotA/DOTA2. Obviously over a period of time anyone would probably be able to master it.

The point we're trying to make is, making that learning phase of perhaps a year (Maybe more?) shorter. With the use of these tutorials.
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Offline Zero

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2011, 03:18:42 PM »
i dunno y everyone wants a tutorial...... its gonna be the same as dota..... same heroes, same items....... if u play dota u have no problem what so ever with dota2...... is the heroes and items were different they wouldnt call it dota 2....: /

maybe for newbies starting dota2 who havent played dota yes...... but hey we all learned to play dota without a tutorial lol...... and if lankans can learn to play dota without a tutorial i dont think any one else will have much of a problem ;) :p

Scenario. Kid buys brand new game from Valve. Kid joins a game without introduction. Kid dies, a lot. Kid gets called names. Kid quits leaving 9 others raging. Kid goes and tells his friends about this horrible game played. End of story.

That is not good for the outlook of the game.

Anyone who has never seen a standard FPS, RTS, or racing game can pickup the basics of the game after fiddling around for an hour or so. Not the case in DotA (or HoN). You actually need a good understanding of the mechanics to be even remotely competent.

It's not just "buy some recommended stuff (anything will do) -> follow another player -> attack enemies on sight -> TP to base at low health -> repeat" like this certain extremely popular MOBA game I know which attracts people for the very same reason.

Offline Xyr3s

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2011, 03:55:55 PM »
i admit the first time i played dota at c@c i played qop and i got raped :) didnt take me long to figure shit out tho.......:) certainly didnt take me a year lol......

if a kid dies and gets called a noob.... deal with it! life isnt easy...... i dealt with it, u dealt with it and so did the other thousands of players...... yet we stuck thru...... if he gets offended cos he gets trash talked...well..... guess what!!!!!! he shudn't be playing games then!

kid dies, gets trash talked.... hates the game..... goes and tells his friend dota 2 is a horrible game..... friend says back "dude it's dota2.... im addicted and so r the other thousands of players "

the first time i played wow  and nobbed an instance i got trash talked, when i started playing cod 4... well i didnt get trash talked cos we were the first to win slcg and set the standards for cod 4 :), when i first started playing dota i got trash talked..... i became a decent player and now im pretty fucking decent in hon and LoL :) (not to mention i got trash talked in LoL as well the first time i started playing LoL...... now i just rape face with yi, ryze, annie, amumu, nunu, xin zhao, tristrana, ashe, shaco, kaye and so on and so forth )

im not the most gifted gamer or the best in any genre of games..... but all gamers get trash talked at some point or the other and they all learn from it.

bottom line..... no guts, no glory :)

Offline Xyr3s

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 03:58:26 PM »
take chixxor for an example :) im sure she musta gotten her share of  heaps of trash talk......i still c her on hon almost everytime i log in :)

i mean if a girl can stick thru it......well..... u know what i mean lol :D

Offline Zero

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »
take chixxor for an example :) im sure she musta gotten her share of  heaps of trash talk......i still c her on hon almost everytime i log in :)

i mean if a girl can stick thru it......well..... u know what i mean lol :D

having a pro bf helps :P and people were too afraid to rage at her cos Rav might kick them off the clan ;)

in this field "thousands" dosent cut it at the bottom line. the more people talking about actually playing the game and achieving something gets you somewhere. Best example LoL vs HoN.

It's just that by having good tutorials, DOTA2 can be more 'n00b friendly' without sacrificing the skill element in gameplay.


Offline Player13

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 06:30:19 PM »
the first time i played wow  and nobbed an instance i got trash talked, when i started playing cod 4... well i didnt get trash talked cos we were the first to win slcg and set the standards for cod 4 :), when i first started playing dota i got trash talked..... i became a decent player and now im pretty fucking decent in hon and LoL :) (not to mention i got trash talked in LoL as well the first time i started playing LoL...... now i just rape face with yi, ryze, annie, amumu, nunu, xin zhao, tristrana, ashe, shaco, kaye and so on and so forth )

im not the most gifted gamer or the best in any genre of games..... but all gamers get trash talked at some point or the other and they all learn from it.

bottom line..... no guts, no glory :)

I appreciate that the task of sticking it through can be like a 'rite of passage' for some... Hell, its what kept me going as I didn't want my friends to lol at me for not being good... but for a game that one buys for money, its just not acceptable for the customer to feel like there's an insurmountable wall to learn the game -- especially when he/she goes at it alone.

Most people who learned through that learning curve had some friends who could give them pointers along the way. If a new customer buys the game and knows no one who plays Dota2, he will not have that luxury. And him disliking the game means he might straight up ask for his money back. That's not something Valve would want to see many new customers do. They might even turn their back on all Valve games if their 1st experience is poor. Not teaching people how to play is bad business, especially when all you need to do is make a tutorial to overcome it.

Finally, look at the hordes of pub players who are still noob after years of gameplay. How often have you pinged for a gank to your lane partner, or been under attack just a few steps away, and the pubby is just hitting creeps and totally ignorant of whats going on? Then you go !statsdota his name, and you see he's played hundreds of games before. Its happened to me a lot, and it even takes away from my enjoyment of the game even as an experienced player. Teaching the newbs means less long time players stuck at the noob level and being unaware of it.

I'm all for teaching all newbies to pay attn to their hp, watch the minimap, and help your lane partner as basic skills. It'll raise the general skill level of pubs, which will raise the skill level of all players and make the game even more competitive and engaging.

Offline Xyr3s

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 07:41:18 PM »
lol i know the tutorial is a good idea.... i was just f**king around with u :D
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 09:05:17 PM by Cųric | Fr3ąk »

Offline Flip4Life

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2011, 12:52:04 AM »
Quote
    In HoN, pressing 'Y' opens up voice with only your lane partner. To do this I'm assuming the game has to detect which lane you are and who else is in your lane. With this information, assigning a MIA key and having that key flash a message depending on which lane you are should be doable. Maybe make the entire lane flash on the minimap with text near chat? Or maybe a toggle of "lane missing" and "lane present" - press once and the lane goes into missing mode, which is shown by a highlighted lane on the minimap.

    Yes we went quite off-topic xD


I never knew about that with HoN, but then again, I never play it anymore :p

But yeah, the lane flashing or something would be very cool.. I'm sure the valve team would be able to do something awesome with that.  Could someone make a thread that only speaks about suggestions to have in Dota 2 and maybe valve or icefrog will stumble across this website and check out some of the suggestions (meaning the thread will NOT go off topic, a completely serious thread)

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if icefrog or valve comes to this forum every now and then to see what us TRUE DotA fans have to say about DOTA2 :p
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Offline Player13

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2011, 02:39:56 AM »
The flashing suggestion is nice. Some people ping the minimap excessively and will probably 'flash' excessively too though. God that grinds my gears... when they ping so much that I can't see the minimap hero colours to determine what's happening there.

One of my suggestions to Icefrog was to have an audio/visual cue to let a newb know that 'all heroes are missing from the minimap' -- kinda like the WC3 warning "Our allied town is under attack!". Newbies always venturing too far then they wonder why they die. Toggle-able function of course.

If you guys have got some ideas, don't be shy to email le frog himself. Better to get the idea to him now, while the game/interface is being created. He advertises his email address on the loading screen, in changelogs and at playdota because he ~wants~ your feedback. Now more than ever I would say.

Offline Flip4Life

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Re: Dota 2 New Player Tutorial
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2011, 05:13:59 AM »
The flashing suggestion is nice. Some people ping the minimap excessively and will probably 'flash' excessively too though. God that grinds my gears... when they ping so much that I can't see the minimap hero colours to determine what's happening there.

One of my suggestions to Icefrog was to have an audio/visual cue to let a newb know that 'all heroes are missing from the minimap' -- kinda like the WC3 warning "Our allied town is under attack!". Newbies always venturing too far then they wonder why they die. Toggle-able function of course.

If you guys have got some ideas, don't be shy to email le frog himself. Better to get the idea to him now, while the game/interface is being created. He advertises his email address on the loading screen, in changelogs and at playdota because he ~wants~ your feedback. Now more than ever I would say.

I always thought he just wanted feedback for DotA..? I feel as if we can't email him feedback about what we want in DOTA2 because although we "know" it is coming, i still feel as if we aren't exactly supposed to know about it haha idk call me crazy, but has anyone emailed him suggestions related to DOTA2 and he responded happily about it or?
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